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The 3rd Secret
Vision
Explained
Following is an edited transcript of an
interview with Father Nicholas Gruner by Tom Masset, host of
‘Heaven’s Peace Plan’ Radio Program. For ease of reading, the
interviewer questions are in italic. Father Gruner’s response is in
regular type.
 [Tom] Father, as you know, the so-called Third
Secret has been published on Monday, June 26, of this year and I have in front
of me a copy of the text they released. Perhaps, for the benefit of our
listeners, you could give us a run down on how you interpret this, line, by
line, by line.
Vatican Interpretation Not
Infallible
 [Father Gruner]
First of all, the interpretation released with the text is not an infallible
statement of the Pope or the magisterium. It is a commentary that’s an
opinion offered by two officials in the Vatican. Cardinal Ratzinger has been
quoted as saying that one does not have to accept their interpretation. Any
Catholic who thinks I’m going against the Vatican or the Pope can be quite
at ease. This is a matter that we have freedom of opinion on.
I do not accept
that interpretation. I’m not the only one by any means. On the front pages
of the Italian papers, Msgr. Balducci stated that he doesn’t accept it.
Apparently there are also headlines that say there are bishops who don’t
accept it. So, as you can see, anyone who thinks I am somehow against the
Vatican or the Pope on this issue can be at ease. This is a matter upon which
we all have freedom of opinion.
Secret Not About Past
The second thing
I would like to point out is that the Secret is not a thing of the past.
Cardinal Ottaviani, in 1955, told us there was a prophecy in the Secret. It is
a prophecy in the strict sense of the word, predicting the future and
predicting it in the name of God.
Cardinal
Ratzinger offers a different definition for prophecy; nevertheless the commonly
accepted meaning of the word is to predict the future. This is an accurate use
of the term, and that’s how I’m using the term here.
So we have here a
prophetic vision which is also symbolic. Cardinal Ratzinger or the commentators
coming from the Vatican including Cardinal Sodano would have us believe that
the vision refers to shooting the Pope in 1981.
I’m not
saying people have to take my opinion just because I give it any more than
Cardinal Ratzinger’s opinion, just because he gives his, but the facts are
this. The vision reports the Pope and bishops and priests, nuns and brothers,
men religious and women religious as well as lay people being killed by an
army. They were being killed by bullets, they were being killed by arrows
surprisingly enough. They were being killed.
It’s not a
question of the Pope taking a bullet, then recovering from a serious injury.
We’re talking about the Pope being killed in this vision, not by one lone
gunman, but by an army of men attacking various ranks of the hierarchy; various
levels should we say in the Church and society. This vision then, if it is not
of the past and it is prophetic, is something of the future.
Angel’s Warning
I believe this
vision is a warning, as the angel says, “penance, penance, penance.”
It is providential that God has allowed this vision to be released to us at
this time.
Sr. Lucy, writing
about this vision in 1982, and I’m quoting from memory the Vatican
documents just released, says that the prophecy of this vision in the Third
Secret has not been fully realized. So obviously the 1981 shooting does not
constitute the end of the prophecy.
Sr. Lucy tells us
that in a little while, we’ll be making great strides towards it. She
writes this to the Pope on May 12, 1982 and says that in a little while,
we’ll make great strides. And so, if in 1982, in a little while we’ll
make great strides, now, 18 years later, the realization of this prophecy
cannot be very far off.
I think the Vatican has tried to tell us that this is all in the
past, its over and done with. You bring up a very important point that this is
not done with. I was raised as a teenager in the 50’s and we looked
forward to the release of the third secret in 1960. A lot of people now are
doubting whether this in fact is the true Third Secret. They’re saying
that they are going to pay no attention to this. They’re saying this must
be only part of the secret.
Something Missing
It appears to be
only part of the Third Secret. I have no reason to doubt that it is Sr.
Lucy’s writing and she refers to it as the Secret. However, we don’t
have the end of her writing and so it does not seem to be the whole Secret. I
have found that the common man in the street is questioning that if that’s
all there was then why did they wait 40 years before they revealed it?
Well I can agree with that.
Msgr. Corrado
Balducci a theologian and demonologist in Rome, has been reported on the front
pages of Italian newspapers as saying that he does not believe that what was
published is all there is. Almost everyone I have spoken to since the release
simply believe there must be more. They may not all be saying it publicly; they
are saying it to their friends and neighbors and in their families. They are
saying that can’t be all there is.
They have a sense
of proportion. Whether simple folks or highly educated, they all know that
something doesn’t fit; it doesn’t jive; it doesn’t match. You
know the kind of oaths that people were put under to not reveal it — the
few people that knew it. It doesn’t match the great care and caution
they’ve taken to not reveal it and then waiting 40 years after the promise
to reveal it in 1960. All of these things don’t match. Nor does it match
Sr. Lucy’s inability to write it down for three months because it was so
horrible. It simply doesn’t fit. It’s not proportionate.
It’s like a puzzle. The first two parts have already been
put in place. The First Secret, the Second Secret and this Third Secret
doesn’t fit. You try to get it every which way and it doesn’t
complete it; its incomplete.
Another point to
consider is that Our Lady said at the end of the Second part of the Secret,
“In Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved. etc.”
“Etc.” seems to be the last words She says. Obviously, that’s
not quite a fit.
The Vision Explained
Coming back to
the vision itself, even though it is incomplete, I would not want to dismiss
it. What we’ve been given is a very great key. Now I wouldn’t be able
to explain this as well as Our Lady; however, since that’s all we’ve
been given, I will try to help people understand this as best as I know myself.
First,
the Pope goes through a great city. What is that city? That city is the City of
God. What is the City of God? It is the Catholic Church and the Catholic
civilization. It is half destroyed. We can see that taking place, already,
before our eyes, spiritually speaking.
Many are losing the Faith.
People are losing
the Faith and not only the practice of the Faith but also the results it has in
culture. In 1950, in Western Europe or North America, no one would even think
of legalizing abortion. They would have laughed it out of existence. I’m
not talking about the plotters or the conspirators; I’m talking about the
average man in the street because it would be just so foreign to their way of
thinking. But, by corrupting Christian hearts little by little, people have
accepted as normal these unspeakable crimes and a lot of other things.
So in a certain sense, certainly their souls are dead if they
are living in mortal sin.
Yes, and the
vision shows the city is half destroyed and the Pope is going through the city
and he’s in pain because he sees the results of not listening to Our Lady.
Sr. Lucy tells us that the vision is about what would happen when we don’t
listen to Our Lady.
So now it is also
described as a mountain. And if you look at Isaias 2:3, it says: “Let us
go up to the mountain of the Lord.” This mountain is the Catholic Church,
as the commentators of the Douay Rheims tells us. You have here a vision of the
Pope going towards the Cross; going towards his final destination as it is for
all of us to go towards Heaven. But on his way he’s going through the city
and the city is half desolate.
Now we also see
another picture here. It’s not only the Pope who gets shot, but it’s
also bishops who get shot. It’s also priests who get shot, and nuns, and
religious brothers who get shot and killed, all of them, as well as lay people.
It’s not by accident that these soldiers pick them out to shoot at. There
is a war against the Church going on. It is a war fought by organized armies.
This vision gives the symbolism of soldiers and no doubt there are even
soldiers in these armies but there are soldiers of other kinds too.
Russia’s Errors Will Spread
The
whole message of Fatima talks about Russia spreading her errors throughout the
world. Of course, we have understood that to be communism and it doesn’t
mean it still isn’t communism because communism is very much alive.
Marxist doctrine basically is a doctrine of hatred, hatred of God and hatred of
your fellow man. This kind of diabolical hatred just doesn’t dry up one
day when Gorbachev declares that there’s no more cold war. This hatred
started long before Gorbachev was even heard of.
I understand Gorbachev was in the Vatican the day after this was
released.
Yes, that was
outrageous! That is a whole other matter that will be discussed. But to
continue with the vision, I asked myself why did the Pope decide to reveal the
secret. It becomes clear when you realize that it was probably last October, I
believe, when he made that decision, and what happened last October? Well, in
September there was the Indonesian event in East Timor. The North Americans
don’t know this but it was reported in French journals the officers of the
Indonesian Army were ordered to fire on priests and nuns and shoot to kill.
Really?
Yes. I’m
sure the Pope had eyewitness reports. Bishop Carlos Belo was in Rome and he had
eyewitness reports of this war against the Church which was shooting live
bullets at real live people and they were being killed by this. I think that
must have tripped his memory to remind him of this vision contained in the
Secret. It’s also then a picture of what will happen to the rest of us
unless we listen in time.
This brings us
back to Cardinal Ratzinger’s point which he said in 1984. “I’ve
read the Third Secret. It concerns the dangers to the Faith and to the life of
the Christian and therefore to the life of the world.” At first glance,
you haven’t got the dangers to the Faith in this vision but you certainly
have the dangers to the life of the Christian, and the danger to the life of
the world. This latter is represented by the angel with the sword. If the
people don’t do enough penance then the whole world will suffer and
you’ll have the “annihilation of nations” that Our Lady
predicted at Fatima.
If that’s
the result, the reason why is because the angel has held back, and that is by
the hand of Our Lady. But if people aren’t praying to Our Lady then the
angel’s chastisement will fall upon the world. And so if people are not
listening to the message to pray the rosary, to wear their scapular, thus are
not invoking the protection of Our Lady, then the just chastisement will fall
upon mankind.
So this is both a spiritual death and a physical death that we
see here?
3rd Secret Vision is a Gift
Yes,
and so the vision in this text is indicative of the Secret. I don’t have
the wisdom or the ability as Our Lady does but it is really a gift for the
Church to be able to look at this vision. It is revealed to us for our time
because it’s a vision of the future, and I must respectfully disagree with
Cardinal Ratzinger when he suggests that people want to know the future out of
curiosity. No, I think God is giving us this vision of the future and giving
His prophetic message predicting the future so we can adjust our living
accordingly so we won’t have this chastisement.
That is why I
want the people to realize that knowing the future; what will happen and the
terrible consequences, are important to them. And if they start learning this
out of curiosity and go deeper, they will realize that there’s a real
message here for them. If you want to live happily in this world as well as in
the next, take great care that you look to this prophetic vision so that you
don’t suffer the consequences by ignoring it.
I”m
afraid many people will ignore this. They don’t see how it fits without
Our Lady’s explanation. Would you explain the end of the sentence,
“Beneath the two arms of the Cross?”
That statement
upholds the classic teaching of the Church that the blood of martyrs is the
seed of the Faith. That is, where there has been martyrs then their martyrdom
is not in vain. God collects the merits of the martyrs, and applies, through
the merits of the martyrs, graces to the people who are still on earth, for
them to come to conversion. So some people will benefit from the martyrdom by
those martyrs praying for them and them converting to God and finally realizing
the promise that Our Lady says, “In the end My Immaculate Heart will
triumph, the Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, Russia will be converted
and a period of peace will be given to mankind.” Of course, it won’t
be the Holy Father who’s killed who will do the consecration of Russia, it
will be a Holy Father who succeeds him who does it. That is why it is so
important for us to pray, work and sacrifice for the proper Consecration of
Russia because if the present Holy Father does not do it soon, we have grave
reason to fear that the soldiers, armed enemies of the Church, will actually
kill him and many Cardinals, bishops and priests, nuns and brothers, as well as
laypeople.
Then why would
this have been more important in 1960?
It would have
been more clear then. Obviously, we would have avoided Vietnam, among other
things, and the holocaust of more than 700 million babies killed since they
brought in legalized abortion in the West. It would have been clear enough for
people to see in 1960 or at least the leaders if not for the people who are not
as, shall we say, informed as the leaders. And it would have been easier to
bring about the full obedience of the bishops to consecrate Russia.
Does this angel who cries out with a loud voice, “penance,
penance, penance,” fit in the Apocalypse at any point?
When the Pope
went to Fatima on May 13th in 2000, he said that Our Lady’s appearance at
Fatima is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy and he specified Chapter 12,
verse 1, “And a great sign appeared in Heaven, a Woman clothed with the
sun and the moon was under Her feet.” I find it very interesting that Pope
John Paul II should cite that verse. It’s the same verse that Pope Paul VI
said in 1967. Pope Paul VI, when he went to Fatima, wrote an Encyclical dated
the 12th of May, the day before he went. He issued this Ecyclical called
Signum Magnum which is the Latin term for “the Great Sign”.
These are the first words of Chapter 12, verse 1.
Pope Paul VI very
strongly suggested that Our Lady of Fatima’s appearance was the
fulfillment of the prediction of the prophecy of St. John in Chapter 12 that
the Woman clothed with the Sun would come.
The Devil Drags Down One Third of the
Clergy
Pope John Paul
II goes further. He doesn’t suggest; he affirms it. So both Popes are
pointing us to that chapter of the book of the Apocalypse of the Bible. Pope
John Paul II goes further; it’s quite extraordinary what he says in his
homily (see extracts of the homily in Pope John Paul II
on May 13, 2000 at Fatima). He gives us a pointer. He quotes Chapter 12,
verse 3 and 4, in which the verses he quotes is, “and the dragon,”
meaning the devil, “drags down one third of the stars of Heaven.”
What is the meaning of that phrase: “the dragon drags?” It is the
devil who drags down to the earth one third of the stars of Heaven. What are
the stars? Catholic commentators have commonly said that the stars of Heaven
represent the Catholic clergy. One third of the Catholic clergy are taken out
of the Heavens!
Apostasy.
Well, not only
apostasy. Apostasy is for every rank. Anyone can be apostatized. But for the
clergy to be dragged out of Heaven, you have the words of Sr. Lucy explaining
the Third Secret and you have to go back to Father Fuentes’ interview of
December 26, 1957. The last time Sr. Lucy was able to speak publicly, she spoke
about the devil wanting to fight, thinking he’s going to win. She told us
that the devil is planning to fight a decisive battle.
She says the most
effective way the devil can do harm to souls is by taking away their leaders
— we are talking about the priests, talking about the stars of Heaven
— and that by taking away the priests then the people would be left
leaderless and they would more easily fall into the hands of the devil. That
ties in with one third of the stars of Heaven being taken down to the earth.
Can The Mother Stand By?
That
ties in with at least one Catholic interpretation of that verse. It ties in
with what Pope John Paul II said in 1982, “Can the Mother with all the
force and the love, that She fosters in the Holy Spirit, and desires
everyone’s salvation; can She remain silent when She sees the very basis
of Her children’s salvation undermined?” And he answers his own
question, “No, She cannot remain silent.”
What is the
Blessed Mother trying to do? She is crying out to us to pay attention because
our salvation is being undermined. Now certainly the basis of our salvation is
our Catholic Faith. You might say the second basis of that is our religious
leaders. So, if one third of the stars of Heaven are dragged down, then people
will find it harder to save their souls. The faithful must be careful to follow
those Catholic clergy who preserve the faith.
And also it is
important for people to pray for priests, to pray for the bishops, to pray for
the Cardinals and to pray for the Pope.
For certain
Father. Where will we be without priests? How difficult in the latter times
might it be to find a priest. People would beg to have a priest they can
confess to when those terrible days come. And we know how important it is to
have priests to give us the sacraments. Where would we go without them? How
many more people would lose their souls without priests!
There is so much
more information about Fatima that the world needs to know. Frere Michel, world
renowned Fatima scholar has written The Whole Truth About Fatima. We
have translated and published his three volumes in English. I urge everyone to
read them to get a more complete insight to the utter urgency of Our
Lady’s message and requests at Fatima. Volume III, The Third Secret
contains the interview of Father Fuentes with Sister Lucy. It is a key to
the Third Secret. Sister Lucy still remains under silence but at least we can
take the key which she gives us in that interview.
Why Russia?
Speaking of Our Lady’s requests, Father, why is it so
important that Russia be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
and not just the world. Why doesn’t the world fulfill the request?
First of all, the Pope and the bishops have never fulfilled this
request of Our Lady according to her directions. So why is it so important? Sr.
Lucy told us in that same interview with Father Fuentes, “Many times the
Blessed Virgin told me and my cousins Jacinta and Francisco that Russia is the
instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do
not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation.”
Of course, God
will punish the world for its sins and that’s understood in the context,
but why Russia? Everything glorifies God; we either glorify God’s justice
or we glorify His mercy. Everything serves God. Even evil regimes serve God.
And God has chosen to use the regime of practical and militant atheists to
chastise the rest of the people for their sins.
There is one way
out of that chastisement and that is by converting Russia. But the only way to
convert Russia is through the Message of Fatima. It will be achieved only
through fulfilling Our Lady’s requests and specifically for the Pope and
the bishops consecrating the country and people of Russia to the Immaculate
Heart of Mary in a solemn and public way on the same day and at the same hour.
Is this what
the Pope has planned for October of this year?
The Holy Father
has asked the bishops of the world to join him in Rome on October 8, 2000, but
to consecrate the world.
The world?
The
world. He has consecrated the world several times; he did it on June 7, 1981.
Then he did it again with much more ceremony, you might say, before a million
people on May 13, 1982. And again on March 25, 1984. He consecrated the world
all these times, but he has never consecrated Russia in the manner requested by
Our Lady of Fatima.
Didn’t I
read somewhere that the Holy Father made mention of the fact that those peoples
are still awaiting?
Yes. Even after
consecrating the world on March 25, 1984, Pope John Paul II acknowledged before
about 250,000 people in St. Peter’s Square that he had not done what Our
Lady of Fatima requested. He said, “Enlighten especially the peoples of
which you yourself are awaiting our consecration and confiding.” He said
that after he did the consecration of the world. So he knows he hasn’t
done what Our Lady of Fatima asked for. But he felt, at least at that time,
that his hands were tied.
When Sr. Lucy,
asked Our Lord why He would not convert Russia without that consecration, He
said, “Because I want My whole Church to recognize that consecration as a
triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary so that later on My Church will place
devotion to My Mother’s Immaculate Heart beside devotion to My Sacred
Heart.”
And so in effect,
Sr. Lucy, herself, had asked, “Why Russia?” Among other things,
Russia is a very well defined territory. So when Russia is consecrated and
people see the resultant conversion to the Catholic Faith of that country as
distinct from the countries around it, they will make the connection. That will
clearly be seen as the result of the Pope and the bishops consecrating Russia.
Then
people will see the relationship between this act of consecration, this act of
honor to the Blessed Virgin and the conversion of Russia. God wants to honor
Her by giving this grace to Russia. Through Russia’s conversion giving
world peace to the world, people will say, “Well if devotion to the
Immaculate Heart of Mary can do that for Russia, what’s it going to do for
me?” And, therefore, it will be a major step in promoting devotion to the
Immaculate Heart of Mary and establishing it in the world.
God Wants Devotion to Our Lady
God
wants to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart in the world so many more
souls will be saved.
Father, thank
you for taking the time to explain this vision and encouraging us to seek the
truth, for the sake of our lives and our souls. We pray that Our Lady will
protect you as you stand strong to defend Our Lady and our Holy Catholic
Faith.
I’d like to
remind our listeners to continue to pray the rosary every day, wear the brown
scapular and receive the Sacraments worthily. We are, as Sister Lucy says,
engaged in a decisive battle against the devil and we must fortify ourselves
with prayer and sacrifice. Your prayers are most important to me. It is that
grace from the prayers of you and all friends of Our Lady that assists me in
this work to bring about the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary before
many more souls are lost.
Father, is the triumph of Our Lady, the conversion of Russia and
world peace described in the Bible?
I think it is.
Read Isaias 2:2-4: “In days to come, the Mountain of the Lord’s house
shall be established as the highest mountain and raised above the hills. All
nations shall stream toward it; many peoples shall come and say: ‘Come,
let us climb the Lord’s mountain, to the house of the God of Jacob, that
he may instruct us in his ways, and we may walk in his paths’. For from
Sion shall go forth instruction, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
“He
shall judge between the nations, and impose terms on many peoples. They shall
beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; one
nation shall not raise the sword against another, nor shall they train for war
again.”
The Mountain of
the Lord’s house is the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ. All
nations, after the miraculous conversion of Russia will stream towards the
Catholic Church — whose Pope and bishops were instrumental in bringing
about the end of Russia’s war on God. From Sion, that is the Mount of the
Holy Eucharist — for the Last Supper was held on Mount Sion — shall
send forth instructions as well as the Gospel which was started in Jerusalem on
Pentecost Sunday. The result will be world peace and swords turned into
plowshares and, therefore, plenty to eat for all. And there will be no more war
anywhere.
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